Episode 001 | Introduction And Investment Strategies Part 1 – Different Types Of Residential Property
In our first ever episode, presenters Damian Collins and Arin Di Camillo look at the fundamentals of residential property investment, what different types of property you can buy and what the pros and cons of each option are.
Welcome to the first ever episode of the Property Investing Masterclass
This 10 episode podcast series was designed to give investors a head start by deep-diving into some of the fundamentals of property investing, including buying the right property, planning your long term strategy, financing your investments and property management.
The series will also delve into more sophisticated strategies such as property development, syndicates and trusts and of course, commercial property investment.
Be inspired to pursue your investment goals with a deepened understanding of how to build wealth through property investing.
To kick off this series, in our first episode we look at some property investing fundamentals such as compound growth, residential investment strategies and property types:
- Land goes up, buildings go down – fundamentals of property investment
- What is compound growth and why is it important?
- Investment strategies under scrutiny: “Buy and Hold” versus “Buy and Flip” versus “Investing for Tax Purposes”
- And finally, what’s the best type of property investment: houses, villas, apartments or other types?
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Damian Collins, Momentum Wealth: Having this investment strategy, putting a plan in place, financing your properties… In the longer term will provide higher yields than you will in the city because they carry… From an investment point of view, you’re probably not going to get the same growth as you would if you bought something older.
Property Investing Masterclass
Arin Di Camillo, Momentum Wealth: Welcome and thanks for joining us on this, our very first Momentum Wealth Podcast in the series of 10. My name is Arin Di Camillo, I’m the manager of the Property Wealth Consultants at Momentum Wealth. And joining me today is Damian Collins, our founder, and Managing Director. Welcome, Damian.
Damian: Thanks Arin, glad to be here.
Arin: Good. Our very first podcast. What are we going to be talking about today?
Damian: Well, today we’re going to be talking about the fundamentals of property investment. Obviously, over the whole series of 10, we’ve got a lot to talk about, but today is really about covering off how to find good property investments and some of the fundamentals that make property a great investment. And over the course of it, we’re going to be covering off more than just how to find great properties because that’s really important, it’s also about how do we finance them, managing them well in terms of property management, value adding through developments, renovations. And then we’re also looking at your longer term strategy, getting that right and also some other things such as development syndicates and commercial property investments as well, which is a really important part, particularly to you through your property investment journey.
Arin: Excellent. So we’re starting with the fundamentals and building it up from there.
Damian: Yeah, absolutely. Looking forward to it.
Arin: Very good. Okay. It will be a 10-part series. We’ll be starting with a couple of fundamentals and based on viewer feedback we’ll be adding some more material along the way. Also at the end of this podcast given that it is our first one we’ll be providing some bonus material for viewers. So stay tuned right to the end to see what that is. Now, before getting into this very first episode, just a quick rundown on who we are at Momentum Wealth and what we do.
We’re a full-service property advisory investment firm. We cover off on some main services that we offer all of our clients. Starting at the beginning with investment strategy through finance broking, buyers’ agency, property management, property development, residential development syndicates and also commercial trust. All of these services are backed by our in-house research department, which Damian himself heads up. So, Damian, did you want to unpack that a little bit for us.
Damian: Yeah, definitely, Arin. So when we started Momentum Wealth it was really important that…because we are working exclusively for the buyer we don’t work for sellers, we’re trying to find the best possible investments and there’s a lot of misinformation in the market about how to find good quality investments. So we set up a research team, it’s quite a decent sized team now. And really they start from the top down and look at the best cities across Australia, go back to the fundamentals such as population growth, economic drivers and what’s driving demand in those particular cities for the long term. And then we choose the best cities and then within the cities we’re choosing the best suburbs and regions within that city.
So then it comes down to still macro factors across the city, but also micro factors. So infrastructure, zoning and zoning potential and certainly cities grow and evolve. Some properties outperform significantly over others. So our research department’s goal is to get the best properties that we possibly can in the marketplace.
Arin: Damian, just on that. ‘Gentrification’ is a word that we use a lot with our initial client consultations. Can you tell us a little bit more about the effects of gentrification on an area?
Damian: Yes, so what that really means is that an area changes in the demographic profile of the people in that area. And ideally, when we’re talking about property investment, we’re looking at areas that might be low-mid socioeconomically that the market hasn’t recognized has got good long-term potential. But you see people of a higher income bracket start to move into that area, then others start to follow, it brings the cafes, it brings the other things, the other amenities. And then all of a sudden people go, “Wow, this is a great place to live”, and they start paying higher prices.
So gentrification takes a long time, it doesn’t just happen overnight, it’s a slow, evolving process. But certainly when you look at a lot of the cities around Australia and you look at Melbourne, Sydney, Perth, all those big cities, a lot of the fashionable suburbs now, 20 years ago were certainly not that way. And that’s what we’re looking for because those areas tend to outperform in the market.
Arin: Excellent. And what type of things are we looking at when we’re looking at population shifts? Are we looking at wages, wage growth, average wage?
Damian: Yeah, definitely. So population growth on a city basis is really important because that helps with driving demand, more people, more demand for property, pretty simple. But then it’s got to be in… the things that bring people to that city, it’s got to be high paying jobs. Because it all sounds great, for example, the Gold Coast, it’s an area that we have never been hugely keen on because while it’s got population growth it’s also got a lot of supply, which is an important part as well, of land. But a lot of the jobs here are retail and hospitality, they don’t pay very much. So that impinges on your capital growth. Whereas you see in Sydney, Melbourne, they are more financial sector-based. So they’re the sort of things that we’re looking for.
Arin: Excellent. Now by looking at those things, our team has picked up a number of awards, which I’ll run through very quickly if that’s not too self-indulging. We were recently inducted into the REIWA Hall of Fame and that comes from for three years running winning the ‘REIWA Large Agency of the Year,’ despite us not selling any properties which is a good point for us. We also won the ‘Australian Broking Awards Best Office for 5 brokers or Less,’ both in 2015 and 2016. We took out the Better Business Awards, ‘Editor’s Choice Award,’ which was the big one for us to win, 2015 ‘Property Investment Advisor of the Year,’ ‘Buyer’s Agent of the Year’ and ‘Property Management Firm of the Year’ from the Investors Choice Magazine which was a great thrill for us.
We’ll go through the benefits of property investing. Damian, land goes up, buildings go down. Basic one, but can you take us through it.
Damian: Yeah, Arin, it’s a fundamental point of property investing and people don’t realize that when they are buying properties that they’re buying, even though the contract, if it’s an established property, might say, “Well, it’s $500,000,” for example, they’re actually buying two parts to it; they’re buying a building that sits on top of the land and they’re paying a price for the land. Now, as I said it might not be separated in the contract, but that’s what they’re paying for.
So you could find that on a $500,000 property, you could find that the land value might be $415,000. There might be a 1950s-60s house, liveable but not in a fantastic condition and only $50,000 or $60,000 house value. Or we could have more… if it was a brand new house it may well be that it may be $300,000 of house and only $200,000 of land. So what happens over time is the buildings depreciate as I’ve just mentioned there. That 1950s house is not worth much money anymore and could probably be getting closer to demolition, but the brand new house is obviously worth a lot more.
So investors need to be conscious of that, whether it’s an apartment, a unit or a villa or townhouse, or a single house, they’ve all got an implied land component value. So land is what’s in limited supply that goes up in value over time if it’s in the right area and got the right location and demographic. So we always focus on getting as reasonable amount of land portion as we possibly can. But again tailor it to the individual investor’s needs, every investor has got their own story and circumstances.
Arin: Absolutely. One of the things that we talk about early on in the investment journey with all our clients is the importance of compound growth. Can you tell us why that’s important for investors?
Damian: Yeah, property is a long-term investment plan and when the market booms, which in every city happens round about every 20 or so years you have a really strong period of thrills. So you just grow where it’s really strong. People get very excited, they get all speculative about property, but that’s a short part of the cycle. And over the long term, we’re investing in property, it’s just generally going to grow slow to moderate levels and sometimes you have that out-performance. So it doesn’t… it’s not sexy that it’s not growing at 20% over a year. Generally, it’s going to grow maybe 4%, 5%, 6% on average, some properties will do better. So it’s that compounding each year, that growth.
And so when we’re looking for properties, just that 2% per annum growth over a 20-year period can actually mean hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars of additional capital growth. So remember, property, you’ve got to be patient and find the properties that just outperform a little bit because over the long term that will make you a lot of money.
Arin: Sure, so going back to your point before looking for indicators really early on in the piece that will cause or help us with some long-term growth.
Damian: Yes, and that’s absolutely right. So that’s what our research is about. Identifying all the fundamentals of a city that’s going to outperform and also the individual locations within that city right down to the individual property, they’re the things that we’re targeting. Just to get that 2% or 3% per annum additional growth because over that 20-year period just on one property that is half a million or even more depending on the property value.
Arin: Leads beautifully into my next question. Long term growth, we always adopt a buy and hold strategy. Is that something that you adopted through your own investment personally in the early days?
Damian: Yeah. I’ve done a bit of both. In my early days I used to…when I finished up as an accountant I ended up getting into full-time property investing and renovating and developing and I did sell a lot which I regret, but I needed to eat and you can’t eat bricks you’ve got to eat money. You need money to feed yourself. But I think unless you’re a professional developer, for 98% of investors, that buy and hold is the right strategy. The great thing about that is that the capital growth you get each year is extra wealth that you’ve got, but you’re not paying capital gains tax because you haven’t sold.
And so trying to time the market, get in and out, speculate, vet, flip all that sort of stuff, it’s only for someone who’s really got a lot of time on their hands and wants to make a career out of it. For 98% of investors, they’re better off to stick what they’re good at with their job or their business, buy good quality investments and maybe, look, along the line there you might renovate maybe in 5 or 10 years, or you might park it away for 10 years and develop it. But for the vast majority of investors, it’s just about buying and holding great quality assets.
Arin: And I guess the other by-product of the property increasing in value not only do you release the equity to purchase again, but at some point, that property is going to turn neutral to positively geared.
Damian: Yeah, absolutely, so that’s the benefit of it. And people often talk about negative gearing and negative gearing’s a tax strategy. It’s good too, but you’re still paying some out of your pocket. So I want all my properties to be positively geared and that’s a good thing, a good quality investment. The rent will grow over a time and you’ll get to positively geared and it’ll look after itself. And also that extra growth as well, that’s a really important part… is that that’s how most of us will get our deposit for our next property. I’ve only saved for that first deposit that I had and after that, I’ve always used the growth and equity in my properties. So that’s a really important part, that’s how we get our equity to get into our next investment.
Arin: Much easier to rely on growth than the weekly savings in my opinion anyway.
Damian: Well, it is because most of us have got lives to live and lead and so having that capital growth is where we’re going to get our deposit for our next property for sure.
Arin: You talked about buying and flipping a few properties earlier on, why should the general investor, apart from the cost of entry you referred to, why should investors avoid that strategy?
Damian: Mine was a full-time… I started part-time when I was still working in my accounting role. But it takes a lot of time and effort. I was single at the time so I had plenty of time on my hands and I could do all those things. It is risky as well if you’re relying on that and it’s also got a lot of transactional costs, stamp duties, agents fees. So again, unless you’re really going to make a career of that which is again, only suitable for a small percentage of the population, you’re better off to stick to buy and hold.
There’s nothing to say you can’t renovate a property to get extra equity and get extra rent. But trading and flipping is very much about timing as well, getting the timing right. And if you get that wrong, you can lose money. So I’m not saying you can’t do it, but I’m saying that for 98% of people that buy and hold is the better way to go.
Arin: Absolutely. Now, we get a lot of people come to us and their first commentary around their property investment goals is, “I want to minimize my tax.” Now, we don’t always consider that a reason enough to start investing.
Damian: Well, that’s one of the fallacies of what people think about property investing… is that negative gearing sounds good in theory and I guess in a summary, keeping aside depreciation because that’s a bit more complicated, but in simple terms, if I have rent of $25,000 a year and my expenses are $40,000 a year from interests and rates and taxes and all those other things, then I’ve lost $15,000. I’ll be able to claim that $15,000 on my tax return as a loss against my other income, keep it simple, let’s sum in the 30% tax bracket, I’ll get $4,500 back. But that means I’ve still lost $10,500 of that $15,000 that’s come out of my pocket. Depreciation helps a little bit, that’s non-cash outlay where you get a bit of it back but still, you find that most properties that are negatively geared, you’ve still got some cost out of your pocket each year.
So what that does is it helps us afford the property, but if you don’t get a property that grows in value, it’s a waste of time, it’s a dud strategy because we need that property to grow in value. So if you lost $10,500 a year, but the property was growing, say, $50,000 a year, well, we’re miles in front. But if you’re losing $10,500 after tax and it’s only growing at $5,000 a year, that’s a dud strategy. That’s where it comes down to making sure that we’re buying the right properties in the first place, that will grow in value, will get to positive gearing more quickly, which is great also. So, your negative gearing is not a strategy in and of itself, it just helps us afford good quality properties.
Arin: Sure. Excellent. Now, a sweeping question for you, one that we could ask all the time at Momentum Wealth. What’s the best type of property investment?
Damian: Well, that’s the $64 question, isn’t it? Or $64 million question, Arin. But it will come down to an individual’s personal circumstances and that’s why that strategy part or property wealth plan up front is really important. Because the best type of investment for a person today might be different to what the best investment that they might have at a different stage in their life cycle.
Simple example, if you’re 35 or 40 and you’ve got a good income and you’re in that growth phase you might be chasing growth assets. So maybe less rental return, maybe rezoning properties that you might develop later, or that have got to that very high laying component value. But when you’re 60, the growth is less important and it might be that you’re chasing yield, so you might be going to a commercial fund where you’re getting 7% or 8% returns of income and still some capital growth, but maybe not as much.
So, it differs on a person’s stage of their lifecycle. It also differs on the individual’s circumstances. Some people are more willing to take more risk and afford more negative cash flow, others are very sensitive to it. So coming back to the fundamentals, the land is what grows in value, so we’ve always got to be thinking of that and if we’re looking for growth assets, chase as much land value as we can possibly afford for that client. But ultimately there is no right answer, it comes down to the individual’s own circumstances and the right plan for their risk tolerance and everything else that’s right for them.
Arin: Sure. And I guess what I’m hearing there with the lifecycle is it’s always best to plan upfront and then monitor and amend that plan as you go through.
Damian: Yeah, absolutely. And that’s a great thing about doing a property wealth plan. Because you map out where you want to go over a 10-year, 20-year period and when you’re likely to achieve those goals. But of course, the world doesn’t go in a straight line and your circumstances don’t stay in the perfect straight line over that 20-year period. So we set a plan in place, we estimate when we think the person is likely to be able to get to their goals that they have set. But the important part is it’s not just set and forget for 20 years, you’ve got to regularly monitor it, could be every year or two years depending on how often things change when they’re ready to buy the next property. But at least if you’ve got a plan in place, you know where you’re going, roughly when you can do things and monitor and change that, that’s how you get to your goals.
Arin: Sure. So earlier on in your career, you’re looking at growth properties shifting to perhaps some balanced then maybe into some development syndicates or even a residential development of your own?
Damian: Yes, definitely, potentially. So development certainly can speed up that wealth creating process, but it is a little bit more risky. So for some clients, they might want to do that on their own with the properties they already own. For a lot of other clients, they may well be going into a development syndicate where they pull money with other investors then you have professional development management that looks after the syndicate and you get a better quality development as well. Trying to do 40 units or 50 units on your own is difficult, but if you’re in a pulled fund with other people you can certainly look at getting into a better quality development asset.
And then when income becomes more important, then certainly focusing less on the growth and more on the commercial type properties. And again, maybe looking at commercial property trusts to spread your risk around and your investments around so that ultimately, ideally you get a blended portfolio; some growth, some income and, depending on your risk tolerance, maybe a bit of development to top up your overall return. And that’s the ideal portfolio but again, that all comes down to a person’s individual circumstances, what’s right for them.
Arin: Sure, excellent. Damian, we’ve talked about some of the fundamentals of property investing. Let’s go through the different types of property investments. Starting with established houses. What do you think are some of the pros and cons of purchasing a regular established house?
Damian: One of the good things I like about houses is that you control that asset entirely, generally they’re freeholder assets so you can paint it, you can change the colour, you can renovate it, you can extend it potentially, as long as it complies with the local council. So you have a lot of control over the property, that’s one of the great things about houses.
You also, in terms of houses, not always but generally, if they’re in a good location they’ll have a reasonable land component value. It doesn’t have to be the biggest block in town, it’s more about the value of that land relative to the building on top, so that’s another good aspect of it.
But one of the downsides about houses is that even though in your own house most people take a bit of personal pride, tenants generally aren’t going to take as much pride in it, so gardens tend to fade away a little bit. Obviously, a good property manager will make sure they do maintain it as much as possible. But they do need more maintenance, garden maintenance, outside maintenance and it tends to be a little bit more costly to run as an investment. That’s some of the downsides, but overall houses are definitely good quality investments.
Arin: Sure. You mentioned before about even apartments having some components of land value. What do you think of the pros and cons of apartments generally?
Damian: Apartments are generally a lot easier to maintain, simply because, in most apartments, you only own the inside of the walls. So you’ve got no personal responsibility for the outside gardens and all that and the common areas. But having said that, you’re paying for it through your strata fees where you’ll be paying most likely a gardener or someone to… and other people to take care of those common areas. So, easier to maintain and that’s certainly an upside, but look, an apartment can be a good investment if it’s the right location and it’s got enough land component value. So I’ve certainly seen apartments that have got water views that perform very, very strongly because they’ve got a good implied land component value within that area. I’ve also seen apartments in… generally boxed ones, high rise, no particular unique features about them perform very poorly because a lot of the value in those ones are just in the building and not very much in the land.
So certainly we don’t buy a huge amount of apartments, it’s not common that we do because we think there are better investments, particularly in the cities like Brisbane and Perth where you can still get properties with good land component value. If you’re going to Sydney or Melbourne you’ve got to look more at the apartment, older style or middle age sort of apartment levels because of the price points. But certainly in the bigger cities, generally you can still stick to a few of those townhouses and houses. But the right apartment can be a good investment, but you’ve got to be very, very selective about it.
Arin: I was just thinking of a story you once told me about the Raffles when it was first built and potentially collecting an apartment there?
Damian: Yeah, for the viewers and listeners that was in Perth, it was a waterfront unique one, at the time they weren’t building any more in that location and the property market was running strongly in Perth at that time, but pretty much they doubled in value from the time of off plan sale to completion. So $1 million apartments went to $2 million. So pretty happy if you got in, I wish I did, I still regret that, but you can’t get on every winner.
Arin: You sure can’t, that’s true. Back on townhouses and villas, we do occasionally throw some villas in the mix as well, or very occasionally an apartment. What are some of the highs and lows of throwing villas into a property portfolio?
Damian: Well they’ve got some good benefits in that they still have a… they’ve got an implied land component value, they generally tend to be lower maintenance, they haven’t got huge garden areas typically. And they also tend to be… in most cities they tend to be a bit newer, so you might find they are maybe 10 years, 20 years, 30 years old, not many that are 50 and 60 years old. So the rental returns are often a little bit better than you might get on a house, rental yield I’m talking about. And they can still perform strongly and you might even get some depreciation as well, depending on how old they are.
So we focus on those more for clients who are a little bit more cash flow sensitive. So if they are chasing good returns from property, they can’t afford or are a bit scared of buying a really old house that hasn’t got much quality, a house that has a good land component value, we’ll start to look for something a bit along the lines of a villa where they get a good bit of everything, they get a good cash flow, the growth is still decent, maybe not as strong as a house, but they’ll still get a good overall return on that property.
Arin: Sure. Direct investment in commercial properties. It’s a big outlay for people and it’s certainly one that shouldn’t be taken lightly, but there is a time and place for investing directly in commercial.
Damian: Commercial is a great investment and it’s something I always say to people, it’s not where you start your property investment journey, but if you’re going to build a large portfolio, it’s definitely where you need to end up, particularly as you age and you go through the aging cycle and income becomes more important. Commercial properties tend to yield… and it depends on the cycle and the quality of the asset, but they can yield anywhere from 6%. If you’re buying a Coles or a Woolworth’s shopping centre, that would be around 6%, 6.5% right through to 8%, 9% on industrial type properties and so… and that’s net, that’s after all the expenses generally. So they’re very strong on the cash flow.
But one of the… I guess for people targeting cash flow, you’ll certainly want to be looking at commercial as part of the mix of your portfolio, absolutely. The downside with direct commercial is that commercial is certainly a lot riskier. It’s… while the yields are higher, the vacancy risk is a lot more. And if you’ve got a residential property and the tenant leaves, generally within four weeks you’ll get somebody else in. Even in a soft market, it might take you six or seven weeks, you’ll get another residential tenant, just tinker with the rent to get the right balance. In commercial, if the market goes a bit soft, probably it can sit vacant for a year or even sometimes years. And no matter what you do you just can’t get a tenant. So it’s a riskier asset class and harder to borrow against as well.
So, residential property, 90% is still pretty easy to get if you’ve got a solid job and you can still borrow 90% even 95% in some cases. Commercial you generally need at least 30% equity, so you need a lot of equity to get into it, so it’s not again a great place to start. So what we find is a lot of people start to look at if direct commercial is a bit risky for them, they start to look at commercial trust and syndicates as a way of spreading their risk around.
Arin: Just on the commercial syndicates, great way to get in, get some exposure in the market without risking everything just by weight of numbers?
Damian: Well, that’s exactly right. For those who don’t know, particularly, a good asset might cost you 5 million, 10 million, 15 million, 20 million, 30 million, 50 million. The commercial assets are generally much larger, much more expensive. And of course for the vast majority of investors, it’s just not practical, as well as the risk of having all your eggs in one basket, it’s just not practical for people to have that sort of money to get into an asset. So what you find is commercial syndicators will come in and they’ll, for example, maybe buy a $15 million building. They might borrow half and raise the rest, they raise $7 million or $8 million from investors. And so basically you buy a unit. You might, let’s say, put in $150,000 or $100,000 in a trust, you’ve already got a unit, that’s a particular share like shares in a company, but it’s generally done through unit trusts. And so that’s your part of that asset and so you get the returns straight through and again those returns are still typically are in that sort of 6%, 7%, 8% to investors. And particularly then a lot of the trust might even buy multiple assets.
So you’re really spreading your risk around, you haven’t got all your money… if… rather than putting it in, let’s say you had $1 million of equity as you’ve built your wealth over time, rather than putting all of that into one property, you might put that into five different trusts of 200,000 each and those trusts might own multiple assets. So you’re really spreading your risks around and not having all your eggs in one basket. So they’re certainly becoming very common and very popular with… amongst investors.
Arin: So in the same way investors are using syndicates to mitigate their risks in a commercial property, we’re doing the same with developments as well.
Damian: Definitely, Arin, that’s the same thing. So developments… to the outside, everyone thinks development is sexy and you know, I want to be a developer and what they don’t know is that yes, a lot of developers do make money and there’s also a lot of developers who don’t and lose their shirt as well. So having all your eggs in one basket, in one development, you can do a development yourself, but all your eggs in that one basket and if you get the timing wrong in the market or something happens to your particular project, cost blow-out, things can happen, you can find that you can make no money or, particularly in a really bad situation, even lose money and it could be a lot.
So running a syndicate, again, same thing, rather than say doing… again, most investors wouldn’t have the ability to do a 40-unit development on their own, that might be a $25 million project. Rather than trying to do that themselves which they can’t generally anyway, they might get to invest $200,000, $300,000, $400,000, whatever number is, in a syndicate pool with other investors. A syndicate might raise $6 million to $7 million and that way you get a share of the upside, you’ve got a professional development manager looking after it for you and again, you might be able to spread your risk around multiple developments rather than just have all your eggs in that one basket.
Arin: So again, what I’m hearing there is making sure you understand your situation and put the proper plan in place before you execute another one.
Damian: Definitely. And look, I’m not saying you would never buy direct commercial yourself or you wouldn’t necessarily do a direct development yourself, particularly if you want to hold, maybe a development on your own might make sense. But again, it’s having the right strategy in place, understanding the risk profile, the pros and cons of each investment strategy, sitting down with a property strategist, someone who knows and a firm knows what they’re doing and they’ll guide you in the right direction to make sure you’re getting the right property investment for you.
Arin: Sure, excellent. Right, that’s all we’ve got time for this week. Damian, thanks so much for joining us and sharing your insights. Always appreciate your time.
Damian: Thanks, Arin. Pleasure.
Arin: Before we go, at the start of the podcast I mentioned there’d be a special bonus for viewers given that it is our very first podcast. If you go to www.momentumwealth.com.au/podcast you’ll find a cheat sheet or a summary of today’s discussion, plus a little bit of additional content for you there. We hope you’ve enjoyed this episode. Please join us for our episode next week, where we’ll look into some other strategies including positive, neutral and negative gearing…
Arin: … which we talked a little bit about today, but we’ll go further into next week. We’ll also talk about whether it’s right for investors to consider regional opportunities or whether we’re better off sticking to the big smoke. So that’s on the table for next week if you’re happy to join us then, Damian.
Damian: We’ll see you then, Arin.
Arin: Excellent. Thanks for tuning in, I hope you enjoyed the podcast and we look forward to your company next week.